Wednesday, November 7, 2007

Who's Deranged? Part 5

I would imagine that Bill is enjoying being able to post crap like this without the worry anymore of mean ol' nasty libruls busting in on his little poop party to point out how mind-numbingly stupid it is. That's good, I hope he's having a good time. But since he won't allow Mike and me to engage directly with his community any more (we're too mean, doncha know - we hurt his widdle feelings) I'd like to take advantage of having my own forum to address some of the wingnutty nougats to be found in his post. To begin at the beginning:
Liberals say there is no war on terror. They say it's just a "bumper sticker" slogan dreamed up by Dick Cheney and the evil neo-cons to fool the American people in to giving up their civil liberties, but at the same time they blame President Bush for it.

(sigh) Of course, that is a gross distortion of the dispute that Thinking People have with the, yes, bumper sticker slogan of "War on Terror!!!" that the Bushies have thrown out as political cover for their criminal behavior. They discovered early on that one can holler "9/11!!" and "War!!" and get away with pretty much anything. Thinking People would like to strip them of this cover and call their behavior what it really is, which is war crimes and reckless endangerment of our country by, among other things, INCREASING anti-American sentiment and terrorism around the world.

Then there is this:
In light of this "new" information, this might be a good time to take a look at what Democrats are trying to do to "help" us in the war on terror.

They want to outlaw waterboarding in spite of its confirmed effectiveness:

Um, okay, why don't we begin with the fact that waterboarding is ALREADY illegal. Yes, that is right my friends. Just because George W. Bush gets his toady lawyers to tell him (and the country) what he wants to hear, doesn't mean that what they are saying is...accurate. This is what we have been subject to lo these last six nightmarish years - The Bush/Cheney cabal decides it wants to do something which is inconveniently illegal. They do it anyway, and they have a stable of Gonzo-style lawyers willing and able to twist themselves into moral and ethical pretzels in order to tell the world that what we all know is illegal really isn't. As Anonymous Liberal put it so well in this post:

When future generations look back on this era of American history, I'm increasingly convinced that the harshest verdicts will be saved for the lawyers, people like David Addington, John Yoo, and Alberto Gonzales. These were the people who were supposed to be the brakes, not the gas. They're the people who were supposed to speak up for the law and for the Constitution, the people whose job it was to ensure that we are governed by laws and not men. And not only did they abdicate this responsibility, they chose to use their power of interpretation to make a mockery of the law. That's the worse kind of betrayal. It's like a doctor who uses his knowledge to harm instead of heal. Such will be the legacy of the torture lawyers.

And nitwits like our Very Good Friend Bill eat it up with both hands. These Compassionate Conservatives tell us, first of all, that waterboarding is not torture and, secondly, even if it is, so what? 9/11 Changed Everything, doncha know, and we gotta be able to torture those goddam Islamohomoboogeymenfacists or else we're all gonna get murdered in our beds!! Please, dear God, save us from these fucking morons. And pass the Prozac.

UPDATE: Oooooo, Bill "feels sorry" for me! This, of course, is how a Compassionate Conservative tells you he thinks you suck while attempting to claim the High Moral Ground in doing so. I tell you what, it is truly fascinating what passes for "morality" in these circles.


Ricky Bones said...

WOW! I thought they covered this back when McCain spoke out on this issue...

“Anyone who knows what waterboarding is could not be unsure. It is a horrible torture technique used by Pol Pot and being used on Buddhist monks as we speak,”

It is considered to be a mock execution, which McCain and the Geneva Convention says is illegal! McCain even said early on that mock executions like he experienced have a long lasting mental effect.

Waterboarding effective? Anyone being tortured will say whatever to get them to stop. Hold electrodes to my sack and I will admit to hanging with Paul A. Schum and being his partner in crime when he got picked up. Hell, I would even admit to being a Republican to get them to STOP torturing me. Of course when I said that on teh repsonses were across the spectrum from calling me a wimp, to I was arguing emotion and no one knows what they would do while being tortured. When did they become experts on "aggressive interrogation techniques" The madness has NO END :-)

AnnPW said...

Torture is nothing in the world but recreation for sadists. The only thing torture is "effective" for in is getting your subject to say what the torturer wants to be said, and in destroying the soul of the torturer. The "information" gleaned from torture is historically, notoriously, known-everywhere-in-the-world-except-wingnutville unreliable which is why such "information" is inadmissable in a court of LAW! Waterboarding is the method of choice for those who want to torture without their victims showing physical evidence of such torture - so that they can use the "information" gleaned to justify their immoral behavior. This is Basic Morality 101, a class that most wingnuts, and certainly ALL of the Bush administration, apparently slept through.

Mike Thomas said...

I actually feel sorry for her. Sorry that her life is apparently so empty that she has to waste it by constantly lying about me.

Oooh! Ouch! It looks like you struck a nerve there, Ann. Of course, that's not hard to do with someone so thin-skinned.

Actually, I think your life has become much fuller since you stopped wasting so much time reading Bill's drivel and started your own, much superior blog.

Nevertheless, this is a fun feature. Though I've stopped reading most of Bill's posts and the inane comments from his tagalong dittoheads, it is still occasionally fun to delve into one and give it the serious rebuttal that it needs.

The "War on Terror" is of course a misnomer. It is like saying a "War on Evil" and just about as effective. If we are talking about a "War on al-Qaeda" then it is clear that it hasn't been going so well. Oh sure, we've had some success against the sockpuppet al-Qaeda wannabe outfit in Iraq, but as for the REAL al-Qaeda and the people who actually attacked us on 9-11, they are still free and are currently enjoying a recruiting bonanza thanks to Bush's crusade in the Middle East.

Greg said...

"Actually, I think your life has become much fuller since you stopped wasting so much time reading Bill's drivel and started your own, much superior blog."

Heh. That was funny. Ann's got a loooong way to go. :)

Hi Mike, Hi Ann.

Based on remarks by various US personnel who have undergone waterboarding, the discussion is still open. Many of them laugh at the idea that it's torture.

One point to make is that the way the US performs it and the way Pol Pot & Co use it are two very different things. It certainly can be used to simulate drowning over a long period of time. Certainly that version fits the definition of torture.

Waterboarding is effective because of the interrogators. The technique breaks the resistance, but it's up to the interogators to get good info. US interrogators tend to be very good at that.

Of course, most any of us will break under waterboarding, and break fast. We'll tell them just abuot anything. And what we'll tell them will be highly accurate due to the interrogation methods.

Of course torture is used by psychos. Check out the AQ field manual (you have the link.)

As far as the BDS infected remarks regarding Bush and morality, well, look carefully at some Dem presidents as well. There's a reason that presidents, including Dem presidents, want to keep certain options open.

"it is still occasionally fun to delve into one and give it the serious rebuttal that it needs."

Yeah, and it's fun to correct all the errors you make in those posts. You come across as far less angry than Ann, so you're much more interesting to type at.

"The "War on Terror" is of course a misnomer..."

Agreed. 50/50 you guys get your chance to surrender... er... do it your way soon enough. And if your guy/gal soothes Iraq and Afghanistan and Puts OBL in a sack I'll be happy to say, "Damn dude, right on!"

However, nothing your side has done gives me the slightest confidence that anything close to that will happen, more likely the opposite. Good luck, you'll need it.

Mike Thomas said...

Please send more. I really like scrutinizing these types of issues :-)


If you are really interested in scrutinizing the whole mess that led to Ann setting up her own blog you should probably read posts and comments on the other side which were deleted and excised from ATC.


Welcome! Like I said before, you are the sanest person left at ATC (not counting Ricky ;)

Many of them laugh at the idea that it's torture.

Cite, please. I think you're hearing a bunch of macho bullshitters.
Here is a good article on the subject.

And what we'll tell them will be highly accurate due to the interrogation methods.

This too needs a cite, because I think it is highly disputed in the intelligence field.
Information obtained through torture is highly questionable in nature. The fact that some may be accurate is not evidence that it is an effective interrogation technique. Like they say, a stopped clock is still right twice a day.

AnnPW said...

Thanks so much Mike - I'm enjoying it too and, as I told Ricky, y'all's participation makes it that much more fun.

I see we've heard from the swamp. I guess that was to be expected.

Whenever I hear wingnuts sniff about how "angry" people on the left are, I wonder Is that supposed to be a bad thing? I mean, do they really think this is some kind of dig, like Bill's I'm-so-sorry-for-you crap? Do they think this makes them seem, what, more "mature"? It's not working. Most people seem to understand that anger about this administration is a legitimate thing, and no amount of wingnut yammering about "Bush Derangement Syndrome" is enough to convince Thinking People that pure, unadulterated rage isn't the most appropriate response to the fact that people in charge of our country are lying crooks. Ask any ex-Enron employee. As for this:

Waterboarding is effective because of the interrogators. The technique breaks the resistance, but it's up to the interogators to get good info. US interrogators tend to be very good at that.

Greg, you have a really bad habit of pulling shit out of your ass and never, ever providing the slightest backup to any of your claims. I wonder what you think you mean by "US interrogators tend to be very good at that." Good at WHAT? Torturing people? You do not have one scintilla of evidence - because it does not exist - that any "information" obtained through torture has been in any way "good". As I said before, torture is nothing more than recreation for sadists. Period. The fact that we, as a nation, have allowed our own agents to engage in this activity is a disgrace, and I have no use whatsoever for anyone who condones it.

Mike Thomas said...

Bill is sure making a big point about how he DOESN'T READ THIS BLOG! Heh!
And golly gee, he was never anything by SUPER NICE to you, Ann. How can you live with yourself???

Seriously though, there really isn't any point in trying to engage Bill in debate these days. He is only interested in reposting things that confirm his firmly held views and then having fawning admirers tell him how great he is. Anything short of that is considered a "personal attack" subject to immediate deletion.

But if Greg wants to come over here on occasion and dust things up I think that is great. Just bring some sources next time.

AnnPW said...

Mike, I was posting an update to this post about just that when your comment came in and, of course, you are right - it is pointless. Yes, he sure was always so nice to me, wasn't he? Like when he is calling me "unhinged" or that I "have no honor" or when he is saying, you know, how "sorry" he is for me. Oh yes, a shining beacon of Compassionate Conservatism is our Very Good Friend Bill. Gawd. BTW, thanks for the links to those articles in your last comment.

Freewheel said...

The fact that the Republicans are having a debate on what types of torture are acceptable speaks volumes about how low the Dubya presidency has taken us.

I think most Americans are sick of the politics of fear. Two days ago, Virginia cemented its status as the newest blue state by rejecting the GOP's anti-immigrant campaign theme and turning the state senate over to the Dems. You're next, Texas!

AnnPW said...

Ha! The day that Texas turns blue, well, I don't think my poor old cholesterol-ridden heart could take it. But what a way to go!